Dialectical Spiritualism: Gottfried von Leibnitz, Part 4

BY: SUN STAFF - 22.2 2017

Conversations wtih HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, excerpted from  Dialectical Spiritualism: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy.

V – RATIONALISM 
Gottfried von Leibnitz (1646 - 1716)

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz calls the ultimate entities monads. The word "monad" means "unity," or, "oneness." He says that the stuff out of which even atoms are made are all monads, the ultimate particles.

Srila Prabhupada: That small particle is not final. Within that particle there is Krsna. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham (Brahmasamhita 5.35).

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz says that these monads are individual, conscious, active, and alive, and that they range in quality from the lowest type (matter) through the higher types, such as souls, to the highest, which is God.

Srila Prabhupada: Does he state that within the atom there is the soul?

Syamasundara dasa: His theory is that even the atoms are composed of these monads, which possess activity, consciousness, individuality, and other inherent qualities. The monad is the force or activity that constitutes the essence of a substance.

Srila Prabhupada: We understand from Brahma-samhita that Krsna is within the atom. That is Krsna who is the substance, the summum bonum. He is smaller than the smallest, and is within everything. That is His all-pervasive nature.

Syamasundara dasa: Then how are the individualities accounted for?

Srila Prabhupada: Every individual soul is awarded a portion of independence because each is part and parcel of God. Thus he has the quality of independence, but in minute quantity. That is his individuality. We consider the atom to be the smallest particle of matter, but we say that Krsna is the force within the atom. Leibnitz is suggesting that some force or power exists, but we are directly saying that the force or power is Krsna.

Syamasundara dasa: But he says that the force or power in each atom is individual, separate, different.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is so. By His omnipotence, Krsna can expand Himself in innumerable forms. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta rupam (Brahma-samhita 5.33). The word ananta means unlimited, and it is clearly said andantara-stham: He is within the atom.

Syamasundara dasa: Is he within each atom as an individual entity different from every other entity?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. If Krsna is there, He is individual. There are varieties of atoms, and sometimes they are combined together.

Syamasundara dasa: How is each Krsna different? How is it He is an individual in each of the atoms?

Srila Prabhupada: Why is He not an individual? Krsna is always an individual. He is always a person, the Supreme Person, and He can expand Himself innumerably.

Syamasundara dasa: And is Paramatma a person?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, every expansion is a person. We are all atomic expansions of Krsna, and we are all individual persons. Paramatma is another expansion, but that is a different kind of expansion.

Syamasundara dasa: Is the jivatma, the individual soul, also a person?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. If he were not a person, then how would you account for the differences? We are all different persons. You may agree with my opinion or not, but in any case you are an individual. Krsna is also an individual. Nityo nityanam. There are innumerable individual souls, but He is the supreme individual person. Now Leibnitz may say that within the atom there is a monad, or whatever — you could call it by any name you want — but within the atom the force is Krsna.

Syamasundara dasa: Leibnitz maintains that the lowest type of monad is found within material atoms, and then they progress to higher monads, which are souls.

Srila Prabhupada: Directly we say Krsna, and that is automatically spiritual.

Syamasundara dasa: He says that each monad has an inner or mental activity, a spiritual life.

Srila Prabhupada: As soon as we say Krsna, we include everything.

Syamasundara dasa: So even within material atoms, there is a spiritual life, a spiritual force?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, force means spiritual force.

Syamasundara dasa: He says that all bodies are ultimate quantums of force, and that the essential nature of all bodies is force.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that force is the spiritual soul. Without the spirit soul, the body has no force. It is a dead body.

Syamasundara dasa: But even within the dead body there are forces. There is the force of decomposition.

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna is within the atom, and the body is a combination of so many atoms; therefore the force for creating other living entities is also there even in the process of decomposition. When the individual soul's force is stopped within a particular body, we call that body a dead body. Still, Krsna's force is there because the body is a combination of atoms.

Syamasundara dasa: He says that what is manifested to our senses, what occupies space and exists in time, is only an effect of the basic nature, which is transcendental to the physical nature. Physical nature is just an effect of a higher nature.

Srila Prabhupada: Physical nature is a by-product. As I have explained, according to your desire, you receive or create a body. Physical nature is subservient to the soul.

Syamasundara dasa: According to Leibnitz, these monads create bodies.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, at the time of death, you think in a certain way, and your next body is created. Therefore you create your next body according to your karma.

Syamasundara dasa: But does the monad of a hydrogen molecule, for instance, create its own body? Does it only accidentally become part of a water molecule?

Srila Prabhupada: Nothing is accidental.

Syamasundara dasa: Then does it also desire to become a water molecule? Does the hydrogen desire to combine with oxygen and become water?

Srila Prabhupada: No. The ultimate desire is of Krsna. If you take it in that way, Krsna is within every atom, and therefore Krsna wants whatever is to be. Therefore He wills that these two elements become one, and therefore the molecules combine to create water, or whatever. Thus there is a creation, and again there is another creation, and so on. In any case, the ultimate brain governing all creation is Krsna.

Syamasundara dasa: But does the hydrogen molecule have an independent desire?

Srila Prabhupada: No, because Krsna is within the atoms, they combine. It is not that the atoms as matter are individually willing to combine; rather, because Krsna is within the atoms, He knows that by certain combinations, certain creations will result.

Syamasundara dasa: But does the individual soul have a little independence to choose?

Srila Prabhupada: No. Bhagavad-gita states that when the individual soul wants to act, Krsna gives the orders. Man proposes, and God disposes.

Syamasundara dasa: So we have no free will?

Srila Prabhupada: Not without the sanction of Krsna. Without Him, we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause.

Syamasundara dasa: But I thought you have been saying that we have a little independence.

Srila Prabhupada: We have the independence in the sense that we may deny or affirm, but unless Krsna sanctions, we cannot do anything.

Syamasundara dasa: If we desire something, we take a body because of that desire. Now, can a hydrogen molecule desire to become a part of water and be given a body accordingly? Does it have the independence to desire something?

Srila Prabhupada: As far as we understand from the Vedas — andantarastha paramanu-cayantara-stham (Brahma-samhita 5.35) — Krsna is within the paramanu. It is not stated that the soul is within the paramanu.

Syamasundara dasa: Then the individual soul is not present within the atom?

Srila Prabhupada: No. But Krsna is present.

Syamasundara dasa: Then Leibnitz's view does not accord with the Vedas?

Srila Prabhupada: No.

Syamasundara dasa: Is this because he states that in matter there is also this kind of individuality?

Srila Prabhupada: That individuality is in Krsna. As I have stated, Krsna knows that a certain element will be formed when so many atoms combine. It is not the individual soul enacting this, but Krsna Himself directly.

Syamasundara dasa: But when we refer to the living entities, the individual soul is also there?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, the individual soul is within the body. Both are present within the body: Krsna and the individual soul.